Toronto Blue Jays!!

[Bindi Cheng]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

Hmm so I guess it's official, looks like we have a guaranteed playoff team, 90-95 wins on paper. Even though I don't like the fact that we overpaid, it'll be worth it if we can get into the post season for the first time in 20 years.

PLAYOFFS!!!

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

The thing is... Arencibia just isn't that good.

I noticed that last season.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

Jays actually have developed several catchers, with Arencebia being the
latest. Very few catchers hit 20+ home runs consistantly and play decent defense. Arencebia was a huge star in Triple A before he got promoted.
I think the Dickey trade gives him a vote of confidance.

I forgot about him. Next season will be his 4th. That's "IF" the Jays don't bring in a veteran catcher to handle their new staff. Multi million dollar pitching staff and a catcher who made around or under $500K last season.

It's like in the movies, Smith. When the manager looks at the player and tells him to dig down deep and give him more, that player can tell the manager if he wants more to pay more.

Also, Dickey comes with his personal catcher. How's that a vote of confidence for Arencibia?

[Bindi Cheng]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

These are the kind of trades that win teams World Series. Sure its possibly an "overpay" but there is a shortage of quality pitchers in baseball and Dickey has been very good for three years with no discernable injuries. A knuckleballer tends to last to an older age and adds a nice contrast to the fireballers on the team.

The only part of the trade I don't like is losing Buck but I guess the idea is the backup needs to be the knuckleballers guy.

D'Arnaud is a prospect not an established player, and you can't really break in a rookie catcher with a veteran pitching team signed to win now. Arencebia ( who Ruben seems unaware of ) is a pretty darn good catcher,
its a logjam there so the Jays dealt from strength. Arencebia was the big minor league star a few years ago and D'Arnaud is coming off an injury.
I think Arencebia still has not defined his top end potential and he's already "broken in" as a major league catcher.

I guess we'll see in a few years what the upside was for Arencebia, D"Arnaud, and Gose. Funny things can happen. Jays have shied away from these kind of moves for decades and watched as other teams win with the players they traded away for prospects. If these moves set the tone for Toronto being one of the places to be for 5-6 years, it will pay off in ways beyond the specifics of this one trade.

The thing is... Arencibia just isn't that good. I know everyone loves seeing 20 homers from a catcher but he has a career 275 opb with slightly below average defense and a tendency to strike out a TON. Before 2012, he was one of the worst defensive catchers in the league so he actually took a step forward since then. He was a AAA star but that was in the PCL league, an extremely hitter friendly environment - think Coors field in Colorado, and he did it in his 2nd year. His first year at PCL had a triple slash line of something like 230/330/440, the major league equivalent of Jeff Mathis (check his career MLB stats). D'Arnaud's first year at PCL in a injury-shortened season had him hitting like 330/380/570. He essentially matched Arencibia's 2nd year at the PCL environment while being 2 years younger at the time and having superior defensive ability.

Catchers with 20 homers do not grow on trees but if they cant get on base, they're not that useful in the grand scheme of things. The Jays are not that strong in catching as essentially their next prospect after Arencibia is Jiminez all the way down in Single A (I believe) That means it will take probably 3 years before we get anyone other than Arencibia. Yeah... I'm not impressed with the deal as I'm hoping AA doesn't sign the contract. Plus, I'm sure he was upset with all the leaks in the trade, I know I would be if something that important to me was chronicled step by step.

[Duncan Smith]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

The Jays seem to be trying for a winning team this season so they probably want a veteran catcher with a proven record for handling the pitchers and calling a game. Offhand, I can't think of a catcher the Jays have brought up from their farm system who'd become their number 1 catcher. There must have been some but I can't think of them.

Jays actually have developed several catchers, with Arencebia being the
latest. Very few catchers hit 20+ home runs consistantly and play decent defense. Arencebia was a huge star in Triple A before he got promoted.
I think the Dickey trade gives him a vote of confidance.

[Duncan Smith]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

I've actually heard that argument before as well and while I don't know the specifics, I've also heard that AA said he won't go after Marcum this offseason. I would have liked them to get Marcum or Edwin Jackson instead but I guess he has doubts of his durability since he has a history of injury problems. D'arnaud is no sure thing but yes, reports do say he's likely to have above-average defence and above-average offence as a catcher and he will most likely have a number of all-star campaigns. The knock against D'Arnaud is that he was injured last year and he is going to be 24 soon. He's probably not going to be a Buster Posey or Joe Mauer but he'll probably be like a Yadier Molina.

These are the kind of trades that win teams World Series. Sure its possibly an "overpay" but there is a shortage of quality pitchers in baseball and Dickey has been very good for three years with no discernable injuries. A knuckleballer tends to last to an older age and adds a nice contrast to the fireballers on the team.

The only part of the trade I don't like is losing Buck but I guess the idea is the backup needs to be the knuckleballers guy.

D'Arnaud is a prospect not an established player, and you can't really break in a rookie catcher with a veteran pitching team signed to win now. Arencebia ( who Ruben seems unaware of ) is a pretty darn good catcher,
its a logjam there so the Jays dealt from strength. Arencebia was the big minor league star a few years ago and D'Arnaud is coming off an injury.
I think Arencebia still has not defined his top end potential and he's already "broken in" as a major league catcher.

I guess we'll see in a few years what the upside was for Arencebia, D"Arnaud, and Gose. Funny things can happen. Jays have shied away from these kind of moves for decades and watched as other teams win with the players they traded away for prospects. If these moves set the tone for Toronto being one of the places to be for 5-6 years, it will pay off in ways beyond the specifics of this one trade.

[Bindi Cheng]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

I've actually heard that argument before as well and while I don't know the specifics, I've also heard that AA said he won't go after Marcum this offseason. I would have liked them to get Marcum or Edwin Jackson instead but I guess he has doubts of his durability since he has a history of injury problems. D'arnaud is no sure thing but yes, reports do say he's likely to have above-average defence and above-average offence as a catcher and he will most likely have a number of all-star campaigns. The knock against D'Arnaud is that he was injured last year and he is going to be 24 soon. He's probably not going to be a Buster Posey or Joe Mauer but he'll probably be like a Yadier Molina.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

The Jays seem to be trying for a winning team this season so they probably want a veteran catcher with a proven record for handling the pitchers and calling a game. Offhand, I can't think of a catcher the Jays have brought up from their farm system who'd become their number 1 catcher. There must have been some but I can't think of them.

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

Also consider this... is Dickey THAT much better (two top prospects + at least $5 mil a year) than Shaun Marcum who could be had via free agency?? You can't even look strictly at WAR, since D'Arnaud was expected to replace Arencibia at some point this season, meaning that this deal possibly makes us worse at Catcher within just a few months than we would have been.

[Bindi Cheng]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

I've spent probably the past 48 hours on Blue Jays affiliated and Mets blogs to see the reaction of the community and from my own knowledge and experience, I think we overpaid for Dickey.

The original proposal was Gose + Arencibia for Dickey and that was fine for a lot of Jays fans but then they wanted D'Arnaud. I was not happy with the development but after a while, I just accepted it's the cost of doing business. Unfortunately, now they're taking D'arnaud and Syndergaard. I had hoped that we would be getting someone back in return but if the only swap we're doing is Buck for Thole and non-impact minor leaguer for non-impact minor leaguer, essentially we're giving away two A- prospects for a 38-year old Knuckerballer.

I know that Dickey figured out the pitch late in his career and that he's had a very good 3 years since figuring it out but still, it's kind of disappointing since we were all hoping for D'Arnaud to replace Arencibia this coming year. Assuming we get an extension signed (2/26 was the reported figure, although that is below market value and 2/30 is more likely) it still feels not adequate. We'll have to see what the minor leaguers to be swapped are but yeah, it definitely feels like an overpayment. The easiest way to tell if a trade is good or bad is gauge the fan reaction and from what I can tell, Mets fans are overjoyed at getting two premium prospects back and Jays fans are upset are paying too much for a #2 pitcher, even if he did win the Cy young award this past year.

I know that for 2013, our team just got better assuming that Dickey can provide 4-5 WAR, but it hurts to see our farm system gutted. Yeah, this weekend sucks.

[Christopher Mallon]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!! Jays pick up ruling NL Cy Young winner

This story keeps getting better and better.

Sorry, but this is really not a good deal for the Jays. Hopefully he will refuse to sign an extension. Seriously, the #1 and #3 prospects in the system for a 38-year-old pitcher, who has never had success anywhere except with the Mets?

[Mark S. Dutton]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!! Jays pick up ruling NL Cy Young winner

I don't know if anyone has heard, but the Jays just got WAY better this past week, 12 player trade, melky cabrera signing, John Gibbons manager, etc. etc. It's freaking awesome. I've never been this excited about baseball since 2006.

This story keeps getting better and better.

REPORT: Jays pick up ruling NL Cy Young winner
Posted By: Newstalk 1010 · 12/16/2012 4:25:00 PM

Citing MLB sources, Fox Sports says the Jays & New York Mets have a deal that would send R.A. Dickey to Toronto.

Fox says the deal is contingent on the Blue Jays & the knuckleballer coming to an agreement on a contract extension. The 2 sides reportedly have a 72-hour negotiation window that expires at 2 pm Tuesday.

Dickey, a 38-year-old right-hander, is signed for $5-million next season but is seeking an extension thought to be worth $25 million over 2 years.

The New York Post reports the Mets would also send catcher Josh Thole & a non-elite prospect to the Jays in exchange for catchers Travis D'Arnaud & John Buck, right-hander Noah Syndergaard & another non-elite prospect.

D'Arnaud is viewed as the Jays' #1 prospect, Syndergaard is #3.

Dickey, went 20-6 with an ERA of 2.73 for the Mets in 2012. He also led the NL in strikeouts, ERA, innings, complete games & shutouts.

(The Canadian Press)

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

This is a chess forum not a baseball forum the original post should not have been allowed and the whole thread should be deleted. The moderators are not doing their job

Hi Al. Hope you're doing well.

As I believe was noted elsewhere on the English chesstalk forum, chesstalk doesn't have the feature (e.g. found on the Australian chess msg board) of having other forums devoted to non-chess related subjects that the chess community that uses chesstalk might wish to occasionally discuss. Larry Bevand once threatened to delete all Climate change threads when it started to get out of hand, if it's any consolation. Paul Beckbeth begged him to allow just one to exist.

If you still prefer to think of chesstalk as a chess forum rather than as a chess community forum, you might also express your displeasure with non-chess threads by giving them a rating of only one star. That may bring their rating down. Other people may follow suit . Though it's an anonymous method, people may get the idea non-chess threads are frowned upon, perhaps by many posters (I doubt the majority would care, really, though :p).

Have a good one. :)

[Denis Allan]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!! SNOWY OPENING DAY

YES -- there was snow. It was April 7, 1977

They played Chicago White Sox at Exhibition Stadium!



Check out this story: http://www.thegridto.com/city/sports...covered-debut/

Unlike a few million others who claim to have been there, I still have my ticket. It was my first year in Hamilton and the lawyer I was articling with had season tickets. He was also a member of Glen Abbey golf club in Oakville and we watched the last inning on tv from the hot tub there. The other ticket I have from that year was also Exhibition Stadium, the Grey Cup where sadly Sask. lost on a last play field goal.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Toronto Blue Jays!!

Thanks for the link. Interesting.

There were a lot of fast ball hitters who didn't catch on in the majors because they couldn't hit the breaking stuff.