THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

Calling Paul Beckwith (and Al Gore) a liar for his misstatements is probably wrong on my part and a bit of an over-reaction to his calling me a liar. Paul no doubt believes many of the statements that he makes despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Paul's task is much more difficult than mine as he has to defend some really ridiculous ideas, policies and people while I merely have to point out how ridiculous they are. I have an unfair advantage in that regard so I should try to comport myself in a more dignified manner and point out the errors in his ideas and statements and avoid labeling him a liar as that just tends to reinforce negative behaviour and a hardening of positions.

Henceforth when addressing Paul I will try to address him as if I am addressing Bob Gillanders who I also disagree with on this topic but who I also greatly respect.

I apologize to Paul Beckwith for calling him a liar and I also apologize to the gentle readers for my behaviour which does not promote civility on Chesstalk. This debate, like a debate about a chess position, should be directed towards finding the nuggets of truth contained therein and not in "winning the analysis". I shall try to do better in the future regardless of the provocative and inflammatory statements by my opponents in this debate. Hate the sin and not the sinner for we all fall short sometimes.

[Alan Baljeu]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

Gore didn't lie; he was instrumental in establishing the Internet.

As far back as the 1970s Congressman Gore promoted the idea of
high speed telecommunications as an engine for both economic growth and
the improvement of our educational system. He was the first elected official
to grasp the potential of computer communications to have a broader impact
than just improving the conduct of science and scholarship. Though easily
forgotten, now, at the time this was an unproven and controversial
concept. Our work on the Internet started in 1973 and was based on even
earlier work that took place in the mid-late 1960s. But the Internet, as
we know it today, was not deployed until 1983. When the Internet was
still in the early stages of its deployment, Congressman Gore provided
intellectual leadership by helping create the vision of the potential
benefits of high speed computing and communication. As an example, he
sponsored hearings on how advanced technologies might be put to use in
areas like coordinating the response of government agencies to natural
disasters and other crises.

Anyway, let's stop the pointless labeling and discuss the actual claims pro/con.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

Gore didn't lie; he was instrumental in establishing the Internet.


Anyway, let's stop the pointless labeling and discuss the actual claims pro/con.

Alan, how can he be instrumental in establishing something that was already established? The history and timeline is pretty clear and Al Gore was a Johnny come lately. If you don't believe me go back to the University of Windsor and take a look at the bound volumes of Byte magazine which were still there as of last year near the location where Denton and I have played a number of our Windsor Chess League games. If not, the archives are probably available on the internet.

It would be fair to say that he helped popularize and commercialize the internet and helped fund the expansion of the internet but he did not invent it nor did he create it. It was already there.

We can blame him for webtv. It was the beginning of the end for Usenet.

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

Vlad frequently rails about jobs and solar power. Solar creates huge numbers of jobs, both here and in the U. S.

Link on US jobs:
http://www.grist.org/green-jobs/2011...ple-than-steel

[Alan Baljeu]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

Alan, how can he be instrumental in establishing something that was already established? The history and timeline is pretty clear and Al Gore was a Johnny come lately. If you don't believe me go back to the University of Windsor and take a look at the bound volumes of Byte magazine which were still there as of last year near the location where Denton and I have played a number of our Windsor Chess League games. If not, the archives are probably available on the internet.

It would be fair to say that he helped popularize and commercialize the internet and helped fund the expansion of the internet but he did not invent it nor did he create it. It was already there.

We can blame him for webtv. It was the beginning of the end for Usenet.

Johnny-come-lately? The world discovered the Internet in 1994 due in part to the Web's invention in 1991. Gore was involved in the early 80's and was the political force behind funding the Internet and then behind opening it to the general public. There's a big difference between developing technology and scaling it. Gore was behind the funding of that.

Even so, the statement is hyperbolic. Gore admitted it himself. At a meeting of Democratic leaders, he said, " I was pretty tired when I made that comment because I had been up very late the night before inventing the camcorder."

[Gary Ruben]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

Vlad frequently rails about jobs and solar power. Solar creates huge numbers of jobs, both here and in the U. S.

You have to figure out the cost per job. If the jobs only exist as long as it takes large subidies to fund them then they probably aren't sustainable jobs. The next election in Ontario will give a fair indication if people wish to continue to subsidize solar. Other European nations have the same problem.

Anyhow, with a clear choice of spending priorities, our first past the post system will give us a fair idea if the voters want to discontinue the current waste in this province.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

You have to figure out the cost per job. If the jobs only exist as long as it takes large subidies to fund them then they probably aren't sustainable jobs. The next election in Ontario will give a fair indication if people wish to continue to subsidize solar. Other European nations have the same problem.

Anyhow, with a clear choice of spending priorities, our first past the post system will give us a fair idea if the voters want to discontinue the current waste in this province.

Apparently the jobs are not particularly high paying. There was an article in the paper that seemed to imply that former union members were having a hard time adjusting to new realities. The article talked about there being no new jobs aside some green jobs opening up and then went on to say that the workers were having a hard time adjusting to the $12 to $14 an hour that the new jobs pay. That is $24,000 to $28,000 per year approximately. That doesn't seem like a lot of bang for the bucks being thrown at the companies which seems to be between $500,000 to $2,000,000 per job.

It is also quite likely that some of those jobs are under programs where the government pays a large percentage of the workers' salaries while they are being "trained". As time goes on, the government pays less of the worker's salaries and the company gets rid of the worker and replaces them with someone who is being "trained" and is thus eligible for almost 100% subsidy of their salary. One local company (not a green energy company) that takes advantage of these government programs has an 8 to 9% turnover per month. In a year that is 100% turnover. Coincidentally the government programs run out after a year.

Apparently Hydro One is limiting the solar/wind portion of the energy mix to 7% which the companies are screaming bloody murder about and threatening to relocate as a result. If they are paying 20 to 28 times the going wholesale rate, that implies that electricity costs will be as much as triple what they are now. Hydro seems to be hedging its bets though as they are claiming that they can't tie the new projects into the grid any time soon but promise to get on it Real Soon Now. I suspect that they are stalling until the Tories come into power.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

If solar creates huge numbers of jobs, where are these jobs? The numbers being touted on Ontario government websites are inflated by a factor of ten or more when compared to the actual jobs created according to journalists who have checked. I missed the open house today for one such firm but driving by their parking lot doesn't indicate that there are very many people working there.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

I like the idea of climate change deniers tatooing their beliefs on their body so that when they change their minds they can be reminded of their denial.

I suggest you go to Texas and try to implement your policy.

"And maybe, in a world of international publishing, learn to be clearer. The thing about tattoos was not meant to be taken as a serious suggestion. For those who took it as such, my apologies." - Author of the suggestion upon receiving multiple email death threats.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

The latest polls give Hudak's Tories a 41% share of the popular vote with the Liberals at 26% and the NDP at 22%. Given the liberal bias of the poll results that have been shown in the past that could mean a PC landslide. The interesting question is whether there is such a thing as a safe liberal seat anywhere in the province.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

Here's what's happening in solar in Ontario today.

Click Here...

I'm a shareholder of ATS Automation Systems and have been for some time.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

CS Wind finally put their name on the former Windsor Valiant flagship plant on Anchor Drive and visible from Windsor's EC Rowe Expressway. I wasn't aware that they owned the plant until today when I noticed the new sign on the way home from the chess club. Valiant was a huge customer of one of my former employers Electrozad. Valiant still has a number of plants around Windsor but the one off of the Expressway was the biggest. Its odd that they need such a humongous plant given the number of people working there (about 30 according to reports). Valiant probably had several hundred people working out of that plant at one time.

[John Coleman]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

CS Wind expects to have 200 people working at the plant by August, with a possible increase to 300 some time in the future.

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

The human impact on our planet is simply staggering:

“The radiative forcing of the CO2 we have already put in the atmosphere in the last century is … the equivalent in energy terms to almost half a billion Hiroshima bombs each year.” Radiative forcing is a measure of how out of balance the Earth’s energy budget is. “When there’s more energy radiating down on the planet than there is radiating back out to space, something’s going to have to heat up.”

Geologists estimate that on average about 10 billion tonnes of sediment have been moved from mountain to sea each year over geological time by rivers and glaciers.

We mine about seven billion tonnes of coal and 2.3 billion tonnes of iron ore each year

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/0...a-bombs-a-day/

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: THE NEW One and Only Climate Change Whatever...

Ocean life vanishing...

http://timestranscript.canadaeast.co...rticle/1420451

Guess who is next?