The One and Only Climate Change thread...

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

It is generally accepted that oil subsidies from the government are huge. Without them is oil viable? The only difference is that the oil ones are hidden and status quo; do you realize how large they are?

[Gary Ruben]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

Lies, lies, and more lies...total rubbish...

That's an odd defence you're using. It's generally accepted some of those alternate sources of energy are not viable without government subsidies.

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

For an excellent guide giving you the basics to destroy all the rubbish from the skeptics go to: http://www.skepticalscience.com/ and download "The scientific guide to global warming skepticism".

Check the contributers list; I am on it...Do your own research on the topics if you are not convinced...Thanks to Vlad, Gary, and other skeptics for making sure that I was aware of most of the skeptic talking points...

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

Lies, lies, and more lies...total rubbish...

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

How is paying eight, ten or twelve times the going rate for electricity going to retool the economy? Wind and solar power as it is currently being sold to the few gullible people left who still believe in global warming as a science, is a total waste of money since it is not reliable and will require nuclear or coal plants to supply power on a reliable basis. Our power that costs eighty cents will be sold to the Americans for one cent because it will be generated when we don't need it. They really need to solve the power storage problem before they roll out these megaprojects. Until they do, they are just wasting money and will require a future government to make the hard decision to allow our energy companies to go bankrupt to escape the insane contracts that the government made them sign. Investors in these companies should realize that there is no such thing as a free lunch and they will not get the returns that they expect.

In 24 months or less most of the "green" governments in Canada and the U.S. will be gone, swept out of power by the broom of history. Our newpaper carries a column by a Mr. Suzuki this week lamenting the fact that Liberal senators sat on their hands and didn't bother voting for the climate change bill passed by the House of Commons and thus allowed it to die. I guess they decided to responsibly exercise their duties as a chamber of sober second thought.

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: Solar Power

Likely effects in various regions of the planet as climate change continues...

http://environment.nationalgeographi...s-interactive/

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Solar Power

... Anyway, you continue to avoid the psychological ramifications of your position. The utopian retooling you are talking about requires a mental retooling that simply isn't going to happen without violence. Americans will NOT give up their SUVs without a fight. The Saudis will NOT give up their remaining decades of oil income without a fight. The Chinese will NOT give up their exports without a fight. ...

I agree with your entire post, but this part I think is pretty much undeniable. Did anyone see the interview with Bernanke on 60 Minutes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxSv2rnBGA8

I was watching with my wife, and she said to me "Who's this guy? He looks like a liar." I had to agree. His posture and general demeanor was that of someone afraid, and hoping to sell something. Anyone who has seen the videos of people shopping on Black Friday this year has to know that asking (North) Americans to consume less is a message that almost no one is going to buy - after all, it's not produced by the Chinese. ;-)

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Solar Power

Au contraire, I think that retooling our economy to get off the fossil fuel dependence will create loads of jobs and prosperity. Not economic ruin but an economic resurgence. Once again the West will become stronger; not a slave to Middle East oil or Chinese products.

Wow, do you sound like Obama. Unfortunately, he hasn't shown one original idea since he took office. He has to keep convening committees and soliciting bipartisan ideas, because he is bankrupt of any ideas of his own.

Anyway, you continue to avoid the psychological ramifications of your position. The utopian retooling you are talking about requires a mental retooling that simply isn't going to happen without violence. Americans will NOT give up their SUVs without a fight. The Saudis will NOT give up their remaining decades of oil income without a fight. The Chinese will NOT give up their exports without a fight.

Utopia is not within sight, it is a mirage. No technology -- not hydrogen, not fusion, not wind or solar power -- can offer us anything near the lifestyle we currently enjoy. Freedoms would have to be curtailed, living standards severely downgraded, and changes of that kind of magnitude cause anger and violence.

Picture it like this: imagine if chess organizers everywhere suddenly decided that chess960 was the only true test of chess skill and all tournaments must play chess960 rules only. What do you think the reaction of the player establishment would be to that utopian vision?

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Solar Power

Still haven't figured out how to use the board properly after all this time, eh Gary?

What does this comment have to do with the title of the thread: "The One and Only Climate Change thread... / Solar Power". Please keep all commentary relevant. Thanks.

[Ed Seedhouse]

Re: Solar Power

By the way, you might want to start a new thread for all this. It takes too long for this to load and it's hard to follow.

Still haven't figured out how to use the board properly after all this time, eh Gary?

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Solar Power

Gary, I love your attempted rebuttals. Standing behind me is a vast scientific establishment of peer reviewed papers and logic.

Propping you up is a vast right wing conspiracy that wants the West to stay dependent on fossil fuels, and remain slaves to the Middle East masters and Chinese producers...

Paul, you sound a wee bit testy. Once you label science reports right wing or left wing as a defence of your position, it goes from the scientific to the political arena.

I have no doubt that behind you stands a "vast scientific establishment of peer reviewed papers and logic". What we are debating here is the foundation upon which your establishment is built and the accuracy and veracity of the scientists.

Actually, Canada and our tar sands will be a major supplier of oil for the "west", which I take translates to you meaning the U.S.. Regarding China, I don't see your logic. You don't have to buy their product if you don't want. Good Luck finding product made here. Many manufacturers have closed down due to the oppressive emission controls and cost and taxes to support the left wing agenda.

In case you haven't noticed, excesses in the U.S. and the Eurozone have almost busted many of those nations. I don't know what shape we are in because it's hard to get a handle on the entire debt and deficit. I do think we need a change of government here in Ontario. The liberals don't appear to me to be showing much respect for our tax dollar. The liberals have followed each of their previous two majority government by a tax raise. I'd expect a switch to the Conservatives next election to see if the trend can be stopped or reversed.

By the way, you might want to start a new thread for all this. It takes too long for this to load and it's hard to follow.

[Adam Cormier]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

So, to all those who don't want to go green and want to stay dependent on fossil fuels, "What are we going to do when we run out of fossil fuels?" They are a limited resource, there is nothing wrong with slowly decreasing our dependency on it, even if you don't accept Global Warming. The economic disaster that will be caused when we run out could be stopped or at least lessened by taking important actions now.

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: Solar Power

Gary, I love your attempted rebuttals. Standing behind me is a vast scientific establishment of peer reviewed papers and logic.

Propping you up is a vast right wing conspiracy that wants the West to stay dependent on fossil fuels, and remain slaves to the Middle East masters and Chinese producers...

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: The One and Only Climate Change thread...

Vlad, our economy is built on the false promise of unlimited fossil fuels. I think that you are comfortable with the status quo and fear the economic resurgence that would result from retooling to a green economy. You worry too much; hopefully reality will reassert itself for you soon.

[Paul Beckwith]

Re: Solar Power

Au contraire, I think that retooling our economy to get off the fossil fuel dependence will create loads of jobs and prosperity. Not economic ruin but an economic resurgence. Once again the West will become stronger; not a slave to Middle East oil or Chinese products.